I (mostly) enjoyed Final Fantasy XVI but I am definitely on team "it does not feel like mainline Final Fantasy"

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bigsocrates

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Edited By bigsocrates

I have very mixed feelings about Final Fantasy XVI. It’s a game that I loved at the outset when I played the demo the night before release, then liked for most of the first 10 hours or so, only to sour on it as it dragged on with a slow plot and repetitive gameplay, only to warm back up during climactic moments or new areas opening up. I repeated this cycle several times, sometimes feeling like I wished the game were just over and then sometimes being enthralled by what was happening. In the end my PS5 says I put over 60 hours into the game, and while that seems high I did do every side quest, most of the optional monster hunts, and crafted the best sword in the game before finishing it. This is a game that managed to suck me in even as it was pushing me away and I can’t remember the last time I flip flopped on a title with that level of frequency.

Final Fantasy XVI sticks you into the greaves of Clive Rosenfield, the eldest son of a powerful Duke who has been passed over as heir in favor of his younger brother, who controls a powerful “eikon” called The Phoenix and thus is destined to be the next ruler of the Duchy. Clive’s own mother views him as nothing more than a worthless failure because he did not inherit the phoenix, but Clive has good relationships with his father and even his little brother Joshua who, despite being doted on by everyone around him, seems to idolize his older brother and “first shield” Clive. He also has a special connection to Jill, who is more or less a hostage taken from a rival clan and raised in the Duchy to prevent the two nations from warring. If it sounds very “Game of Thronesy” it is, and has much of the tone of that show, even though by the end it’s clear that Final Fantasy XVI isn’t interested in politics as anything more than a backdrop for its characters and the existential and ideological stories it wants to tell with them. All of the grounded storytelling and mature characterization is backdrop for some very Japanese pseuforeligious nonsense that reveals itself over the course of the game.

Overall I thought the story and world were fine, if a little blander and more grounded than I would have liked. The game spends a lot of time making sure you know what’s going on, with two separate characters whose main function it is to keep track of lore and the current status of the realm and a complex and self-updating encyclopedia of terms and ideas. In the end it’s not very important, though, because this is a personal story about Clive, his companions, and their antagonists and all the high political drama and complexity gets swept away by other forces before the end of the game. I did care about the characters and their fates, though, perhaps more so than any other JRPG that takes a stab at realism and groundedness. Most of the people you meet in the game are well intentioned and struggling to find justice and home in a cruel world where magic users are treated as discardable slaves and empires clash violently to try over dwindling resources. There’s a lot of intrigue and murder and the game does not pull its punches. It isn’t very Final Fantasy like in that people just straight up die, often for cruel and capricious reasons, and in bloody and brutal ways. Multiple characters cut their own throats just off camera and there is plenty of blood. The aesthetic is definitely much darker than Final Fantasy usually goes.

Remember when Final Fantasy XV was all about delicious foods? Final Fantasy XVI is...not.
Remember when Final Fantasy XV was all about delicious foods? Final Fantasy XVI is...not.

Despite the mature tone Final Fantasy XVI is, in some ways, a very Final Fantasy game. Fixtures like chocobos, moogles, and Cid are all well represented, and there are numerous references to other concepts from various games. The “eikons,” godlike beings that are contained within “dominants,” people who control them, are all old school Final Fantasy summons like Bahamut and Shiva, and there are probably more crystals in the game than in any previous title in the series. There are even a few moments of whimsy and a couple comic relief characters, including a Moogle who would fit right in to the lighter entries in the series. I didn’t feel like this was “not Final Fantasy” just because of the dark tone and more grounded, realistic, aesthetics. This felt fairly in line with something like Final Fantasy Tactics or a few other earlier entries into the series before it got completely goofy with water polo players and guys with Chocobo chicks in their hair.

Aesthetically the game is at least pretty classical RPG in its approach. Most of the areas look like places in the English countryside, with a desert area thrown in and a few desolate wastelands to show the world’s decay. There castles and rotting towns and mystical ruins but while you do get a volcano dungeon you don’t really get snow areas let alone anything truly otherworldly. This is a throwback RPG aesthetic to the time before these fantasy games became truly fantastical and a lot of these areas look like they could exist in the real world except for the griffons and drakes that prowl them.

If you like fields and forests thi is the game for you!
If you like fields and forests thi is the game for you!

Combat, on the other hand, has now fully embraced the real time action genre, with you having direct control over Clive in every encounter, unable to switch characters even when there are others in the party (they operate by their own AI but don’t take damage so fortunately the game is not one long escort quest) and focusing on typical action game commands like perfect dodges and special abilities on a cool down. As action RPGs go it’s okay, fast and responsive at least, but not very deep and at times unengaging. You have a decent number of skills that can be upgraded and switched in and out, and a ranged attack that you can charge, but it’s all pretty simple and not hard at all. I played in “action mode,” without using any of the items like an autoheal amulet that let you customize the difficulty, and I died a total of twice; once when I got to a boss fight without a lot of healing items left and another time where I failed to pay attention to my health and died with potions still available.

Speaking of potions, they are one of the many, many, areas where the game eschews traditional RPG mechanics, often to its detriment. You have a very limited number of potions (you start with 4 normal and 3 hi potions, along with an extra slot that you end up with few options for, and the ability to expand your capacity later) and the game generally doles them out generously during its action levels, to the point where there’s no reason to conserve them. You can also buy more at any store for a very low price. Loot in general in the game is…awful. It’s legitimately the worst loot I’ve ever encountered in a game that is at least nominally an RPG. There are four ways to get loot. The fist is little sparkling spheres scattered around that are sometimes potions but are more often a few gil (and when I say a few I mean that literally; at most like 40 and at least like 2) or crafting supplies. The second is in chests, which will very rarely contain pieces of equipment but more often a larger number of crafting supplies or gil (as much as 3,200). Finally there are battle rewards and quest rewards. This all sounds pretty normal, but it is profoundly underwhelming because there are only a few types of crafting materials and you end up with way more of them than you need, or you can buy extra from shops if you somehow don’t have enough.

Also the equipment in FF XVI sucks. There are basically two stats, attack and defense, and equipment either adds to your attack if it’s a sword or your defense (and sometimes HP) if it’s in one of the two item slots. There’s also “stagger” but as far as I can tell the stagger value is always the same as your attack stat so it’s not actually a different stat. There are three other stats that go up as you level but the only effect they have is on your attack or defense so they also are not actual stats. Resistances? No. Any kind of stat that affects cooldowns? Not as far as I can tell.

Accessories are slightly different but equally boring. More or less they have some minor effect like slightly decreasing cooldown or increasing damage for a specific move or having some other minor effect like increasing the damage your dog companion does or increasing your magic damage by 10%. I mostly just left the accessories that increase gil, XP, and AP (more on that later) from normal encounters on, even for bosses where they had no effect. That shows both how little the accessories matter and how easy the game actually is, requiring absolutely no attempt to manage your build or prep for individual bosses.

There's nothing scarier than a Flan Prince but don't worry, there's no need to prep for him, just like all the other bosses.
There's nothing scarier than a Flan Prince but don't worry, there's no need to prep for him, just like all the other bosses.

The only piece of character development that’s actually important is your skill set, which is done via spending AP points (acquired through combat or sometimes quest rewards) to gain or improve various combat skills (like a dash attack or downward thrust) or magic abilities on a cooldown. Unfortunately a lot of this makes less of a difference than you’d expect. While the skill bound to the O button can vary greatly from a dash towards opponents to yanking them towards you to blocking (the only way to block in the game) the cooldown skills all pretty much just do damage. Some might do wide AOE damage on a long cooldown while some might only hurt opponents in melee range on a shorter cooldown, and some might do more stagger damage vs HP damage but because they’re all on a significant cool down I really did not feel like they changed up the gameplay a lot. The net effect is that you have a lot of customization choices in your skills but most of them end up feeling pretty similar.

It's a good thing that the combat is…adequate then. Some people have called it watered down Devil May Cry, and that’s fair, but it resembles other character action games like the new God of War, though Clive is much more nimble than Kratos and every single weapon in the game feels exactly the same. Non-boss enemies are mostly punching bags who don’t do much, though some magic users will heal or armor their compatriots and there are a few tougher opponents who will force you to play a little more carefully and generally have a stagger bar, as do all the bosses. The stagger bar, which has appeared before in modern Final Fantasy, consists of a yellow bar below health that only bigger enemies have and that depletes when you do damage, usually faster than HP. When it hits the center line the enemy will stumble, which interrupts any attack they were doing and also allows you to use the “yank them towards you” move to increase the stun time by a bit. Then when it fully depletes the enemy goes into stagger mode where they just lay there for a bit while you whale on them with a damage bonus. For many boss fights the optimal strategy is to make sure that as many cool downs as possible are available when the boss enters stagger so you can really go to town and take off a big chunk of life.

If you're flanphobic this is not the game for you
If you're flanphobic this is not the game for you

Other than that I found the best strategy was to carve up the little guys as fast as possible and stand back from the larger enemies hitting them with charged magic shots (there is no MP so you can use the attack as much as you want), trying to hit precision dodges when they attacked and hitting a few counter blows before backing off again. You can also parry if you attack just as an enemy is about to hit you but I never felt the need to master that and mostly got parries during my limit breaks (a gauge that increases as you do damage and can trigger on command, which is also often worth saving for stagger points) when you can attack much faster than usual.

The system works well enough and combat is entertaining but I really wish there were some more RPG like wrinkles. Status effects of some sort, the ability to do more damage through elemental strengths and weaknesses, or weapons that either felt different from one another in some way or even just were balanced towards HP damage or stagger. Nope. You also don’t get to command your party members except for your dog, who is mostly irrelevant. You can command him to heal you for like 3-4% of your HP, significantly less than 1 hit. Yay?

But if the combat is missing additional RPG mechanics the rest of the game is much worse. You can walk around and talk to people, you can gather things, you can shop, and you can fight. That’s it. There are no mini-games, crafting is as bare bones as it gets and often results in you increasing your attack by like 3%, and there’s basically nothing of value to find. There are plenty of side quests (I did all of them) but most of them don’t provide you with anything of value, though a few have an impact like improving your potions or providing you with other meaningful awards. You can do side quests and named monster hunts to gain rewards and increase a reputation gauge that gives you…more (mostly useless) rewards at various levels. It’s all kind of RPG shaped but it doesn’t feed back into the main loop of the game well. Some of the side quests are well-written and develop some of the character, and some of the unique monsters are neat or funny, but none of it feels meaningful outside of the stories they tell. And so to me the game lived and died by how I felt about whatever story I was participating in. When the main story was cooking I was engaged and eager to see more. When it was in a lull I wondered whether I’d ever finish the game. Side quests with compelling characters and interesting things to say felt engaging. Side stories that were just fetch quests or boring felt like pointless chores. If I had it to do over again I would not have done nearly as much side stuff because too much of it felt like filler in a world that’s already repetitive and lacking things to do.

The game isn't all grimdark, there are definitely moments of humor.
The game isn't all grimdark, there are definitely moments of humor.

The game is also extremely linear and light on exploration. There are a few forks in the road and some open field areas, but every side area (which there aren’t many of) will end up being used for a later story beat or side quest. Not an inch of space exists just for atmosphere or exploration. Granted the game does send you back to areas multiple times, which helps it feel less linear than something like Final Fantasy XIII, but with no real over map (you can travel between different disconnected areas via a map screen but cannot roam outside the action areas), and mostly linear areas, it feels much smaller than a game like Xenoblade Chronicles II or III. This is made even worse by the garbage loot. Walk a little bit out of your ways to find a chest only to recover 20 “bloody hides,” which you already have 1,500 of and no use for? It feels almost like the developers punishing you for wanting to explore.

As an aside, none of the rewards in this game ever feel balanced in any way. Late area chests have pretty much the same things as early area ones. XP and AP feel arbitrarily assigned. For some reason various types of wild dogs give way more AP than most enemies, but you absolutely cannot predict what rewards you’ll get from the difficulty of an encounter. A quick battle against a couple waves of trash mobs that you dispose of using an AOE ability can provide more rewards than fighting a boss who pushes you as close to your limit as this easy game gets.

At times it feels like the developers are trolling because they resent that they’re having to make an RPG. “You want meaningful rewards? Here’s 300 AP for defeating a pack of dogs and 60 for defeating a dragon.” “You want a crafting system? Here’s 20x the amount of crafting materials you could ever need and when you do craft an item it increases your damage by 2%.” “You want meaningful exploration? Congratulations you found a chest, but if it doesn’t have a negligible amount of money in it you will instead get an item that improves the damage of one move you don’t have equipped by 3%.” That’s if the game lets you explore at all, which it rarely does.

This is the map. Sometimes the game locks you out though mostly you can go wherever you want to the play areas on it.
This is the map. Sometimes the game locks you out though mostly you can go wherever you want to the play areas on it.

If the main areas feel linear then the ‘dungeons’ are more or less corridors. There are a few optional chests in small rooms off the main path and in a couple dungeons you have minor optional areas or the need to go hit a switch to unlock the main path, but it’s mostly just move forward and fight like a linear action game. Some of the boss fights are impressive (and there is a special fighting mode that gets activated maybe half a dozen times that makes for some truly spectacular and cinematic battles) but it’s very much an action game, complete with huge numbers of potions to keep your health up as you move from encounter to encounter. The game even lets you revisit these areas in “arcade” mode either with your fully upgraded character or one constrained to the level and stats you would normally have on your first time through.

While none of these sections feel much like an RPG they are the best parts of the game, and that, to me, is why it doesn’t feel like a mainline Final Fantasy game. As I played it I asked myself what makes an RPG? Is it a focus on story and side quests? Is it leveling and character development? I think the latter is closer than the former but I don’t think there’s an easy answer. Final Fantasy VII Remake had real time combat, but its more involved progression mechanics, use of mana and party mechanic, and side activities like the racing and box smash made it feel like an RPG even with its linear level design. I think the big difference to me is the sense of exploration and discovery that Final Fantasy games have usually had, the feeling like there could be some weird minigame or optional dungeon around any corner. You always know what’s around the corner in Final Fantasy XVI. More combat and talking. There was only one moment in the game that genuinely surprised me from a mechanical perspective, and it ended up not being meaningful.

So I enjoyed FF XVI but it didn’t give me what I was looking for our of a Final Fantasy experience. It’s definitely not a game I hate like FF XIII, but it manages to be both a good time and a disappointment at the same time. I bear no ill will towards Clive and his crew and now that I now what the game is I might even be interested in DLC or one of their weird sequels or spinoffs down the road, but I was also left craving a real RPG experience after I finished it. I ended up booting up the original Wild Arms on PS5 and in the first few hours of that you get dungeons more complicated than anything FF XVI offers and a set of stupid mini games at a festival that are exactly what I think FF XVI is missing. In the end FF XVI feels like the developers wanted to make an action game but were forced by Square to make a mainline RPG instead so they phoned in the RPG parts (except the story) and focused on the stuff they cared about, which is also not the stuff I want from a mainline Final Fantasy game, even if in a vacuum it’s decent gameplay. If this were just another spin off like Stranger in Paradise the whole thing would make more sense to me.

If you're worried there's not enough absolute pretentious nonsense for a Final Fantasy game there is no need to worry!
If you're worried there's not enough absolute pretentious nonsense for a Final Fantasy game there is no need to worry!

I don’t know where Final Fantasy goes from here and I’ll probably travel with it at least a little bit longer, but I hope future games go back to the overstuffed goofiness of the franchise’s past. I played the FF VII Remake DLC before I started FF XVI and that felt much more like what I wanted, with a whole mini RTS game and weird shooting gallery section jammed into a few hours of DLC. That’s what I want from a mainline Final Fantasy game and what was missing from FF XVI. Oh well. There’s always FF XVI-II, at least if it sells well.

Look at that broad grin!
Look at that broad grin!
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Good write up. I completely agree that this does not feel like a proper mainline FF game and I don't know if I have ever slogged through a FF entry quite like I had to with this one. For all of Square's talk about trying to move the series forward and evolve and change, they ended up with a game that, to me, feels extremely old, and not in a good way. It often feels five or more years behind other, better games. They want to be cinematic, but 90% of the story is told with basic shot-reverse shot camera work and wooden, department-store mannequin character models. That was fine when Mass Effect came out in 2007, but the industry has moved on significantly since then.

I was arguing with some friends who disagreed with me that this was a poor series entry and one of them brought up Yakuza as an example of a series that constantly evolves itself as proof that evolution isn't a bad thing. I feel like the difference is that Yakuza knows exactly what it is in a way that Final Fantasy currently doesn't. Yakuza has that goofy, wacky sense of humor that they manage to maintain regardless of whether the specific entry is brawler, or a turn-based RPG, or set during Bakumatsu-era Japan. I bet RGG could make a Yakuza RTS and it would still feel like a Yakuza game.

By comparison, what makes a Final Fantasy game a Final Fantasy game? Is it big, dumb, particle effect spectacle? Is it the soap-opera story tone? Combat? Chocobos? I don't think that Square knows, and I don't think they can make a good Final Fantasy game until they figure that out.

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Efesell

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#2  Edited By Efesell

I think I'm just too tired of 20 years of "Is this Final Fantasy" to entertain the thought without immediate annoyance.

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bigsocrates

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@therealturk: I'm not sure I'm 100% on board with the game feeling old, since I can't think of many games that manage to avoid the "awkward stand around exposition" thing. Even God of War: Ragnarok, which admittedly did put a lot of its story into walk and talks or interesting cut scenes, had a little bit of that sprinkled in. It feels a little mid budget but at least to me it didn't feel archaic, though some elements (like quest design) certainly are.

I do understand where you're coming from. This does feel like it could be a remake of a game from 2013, but on the other hand I feel like game design just hasn't evolved that much since then. I will say that when I was playing it I did keep getting shadows of the first Nier, probably because the environmental designs are similar, so it definitely did remind me of older games. Except there was much more to do in Nier!

I am however 100% on board with you that it feels like they didn't have a coherent vision. Or if they did it was not what they made. So many elements of this game just do not fit together. From the bizarre choices in loot and crafting to weird ways parties work it feels like a lot of the game was added because they felt like they needed it but it doesn't fit together. Yakuza is an excellent example of a series that feels a lot more coherent even when the games have a lot of variety, because each game knows what it wants to be. This game definitely doesn't.

There is a point very late in the game where Clive says "we're trapped here, no way out" to one of his companions. And you're not. At all. You can fast travel wherever you want. Even though the game SOMETIMES locks you out of fast traveling (such as if you complete part of a quest but another thing is going to trigger when you leave that location.) While the game feels polished in some parts it feels totally sloppy and slapdash in others. It's just a weird thing.

@efesell: Perhaps it would be better to say that my criticism is that this game feels like it does not want to be an RPG and all the RPG elements of it are undercooked and often flat out bad. Like it's one thing to argue whether Final Fantasy games need turn based combat (they don't) but it's another to play an "RPG" where loot and crafting rewards are wothless and 95% of the quest rewards are crafting rewards or loot. A lot of this stuff is bad whether or not it says Final Fantasy on the label.

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AV_Gamer

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#5  Edited By AV_Gamer

If you miss the "traditional" turn based Final Fantasy, then the Final Fantasy IX remake should give you what you need. I'm pretty sure they won't turn that game into a DMC or MMO type of game, considering that FFIX was meant to be a tribute to the classic games in the series to begin with, when people were turned off by FFVIII and its realistic graphics and emo storyline. So I'm sure when it comes out years from now, the turn based gameplay will be fully intact. As someone who liked FFIX a lot, I'm looking forward to how they will approach this remake.

With that said, given the mostly positive feedback this game is getting, expect Square-Enix to continue making these "non-mainline" type of Final Fantasy games in the future.

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@efesell said:

I think I'm just too tired of 20 years of "Is this Final Fantasy" to entertain the thought without immediate annoyance.

People honestly were saying "Is this Final Fantasy?" when 6 didn't have a job system. It's a tired narrative and in sounding the alarms again, I don't think some understand what toxic festering pit of ne'er-do-wells they are throwing their lot in with in beating this war drum. I just pray that people understand that going into this debate.

It's on par with saying you think D&D died when SSI ceased to exist.

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bigsocrates

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@zombiepie: I find this kind of accusation that by criticizing how a game fits into the franchise you are "throwing your lot in with a toxic festering ne'er do wells*" to be more or less libel. Just a completely out of control touchy fanboy whine that does nothing to engage with the actual arguments presented.

Squaresoft is selling this game as a mainline RPG and as I painstakingly explained every single RPG mechanic in the game is poorly implemented and borderline worthless.

That's a problem.

From a story/game structure perspective it's...mostly fine, there are things to argue about and critique, and from a gameplay perspective it's...boring but respectable (not nearly enough variation in the abilities) but the RPG mechanics all feel crammed in by people who didn't want them there, none of them matter, and every single one of them feels like it was mandated by a marketing team.

So why are they there? Because Squaresoft wanted to sell this is an RPG. They didn't want people to see it as the long, linear, action game (with a bunch of open-worldish side quests) that it is. There's no other explanation for why any of this stuff is there when it's all pointless to engage with beyond the mandatory trips to the blacksmith to "upgrade" your gear after every major encounter.

Square brought this upon itself by giving the game a number (it's made lots of non-numbered FF stuff) and selling it as an RPG instead of an action game. And it completely fails mechanically as an RPG. It also totally lacks side activities, which are a staple of not just Final Fantasy RPGs but the majority of big budget JRPGs since the PlayStation era.

Now this doesn't make it a bad game and if you actually read what I wrote, which several people apparently didn't bother to despite feeling the need to respond, you can see I didn't come away bitter or angry just kind of disappointed that the game wasn't what was pitched, and what Square clearly wanted me to think it was. And if criticizing that makes me somehow a "toxic and festing ne'er do well" then I wear that badge proudly because it's better than the alternative of just accepting a bunch of flat out awful mechanics that only exist for marketing purposes.

*Who are apparently toxic and festering because they don't like the direction a game series has gone?

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CreepingDeath0

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Every time someone complains about a new Final Fantasy not being a Final Fantasy all I can think is... Why aren't you people playing Dragon Quest?

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AV_Gamer

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#9  Edited By AV_Gamer

@creepingdeath0: Its interesting you say this, because people seem to forget the origin story of Final Fantasy. it was a blatant ripoff of Dragon Quest as a desperate attempt to keep a gaming company, Squaresoft, from going under. And it work, because many Japanese gamers at the time were looking for something different, but similar to DQ and they got it. This is the only reason the name Final Fantasy is still being used today, to pay tribute to that history.

There was never a so-called traditional Final Fantasy game. That's like saying there is a tradition form of Jazz, when Jazz was always about improvisation and taking good things from other music genres and combining it with others. The film La La Land was about this. And like Sebastian in that film, the people claiming FF has to be a certain way to qualify aren't being accurate if they know the history of that series.

If the game has Chocobos, Moogles, and a guy named Cid, it's a FF game. Everything else is up in the air.

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Efesell

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#10  Edited By Efesell
@av_gamer said:

@creepingdeath0: Its interesting you say this, because people seem to forget the origin story of Final Fantasy. it was a blatant ripoff of Dragon Quest as a desperate attempt to keep a gaming company, Squaresoft, from going under.

It's less that and more that Sakaguchi wanted to make a Wizardry knockoff but no one would let him until Dragon Quest came along and made enough money to turn company heads.

I know the internet throws around the it's "Final" Fantasy because it was a hail mary but Sakaguchi has said before in interviews that they just wanted something that started with "F".

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bigsocrates

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ITT a bunch of people who have apparently neither played the game nor read what was actually posted arguing against strawmen pet peeve arguments that were never made.

Nobody said that the game had issues because it wasn't "traditional" Final Fantasy. The term "traditional" was used only in a neutral sense to say that the game doesn't have traditional RPG mechanics...which is ine.

The problem, once again, is that Square included a bunch of undercooked, unbalanced, or even flat out fake mechanics so that they could market this as an action RPG instead of the action game it actually is.

The player stats in this game outside attack, defense, and HP if you count that as a stat are more or less fake. They don't do anything other than slightly influene the real stats and there's no way to affect them.

Party composition more or less does not matter even though the game goes out of its way to put a list of party members on every save slot and does some other stuff.

This feels like an action game dressed up in RPG costume jewelry for marketing purposes.

If Square just said "this is an action game" or built it without these bad mechanics (so I wasn't reflexively going out of my way to look for hidden loot only to be disappointed by what I found consistently) I would have a different view on the game. I don't care about Final Fantasy traditions but I do care when a game has a bunch of very bad mechanics inserted for marketing purposes.

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Efesell

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#12  Edited By Efesell

I didn't follow the marketing very closely, I will admit, but I did follow the many times that the developers said "Yeah we're making an Action game, and we're following examples from all of these Action Games" so like maybe relax about The Lies a little bit.

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bigsocrates

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@efesell: They claimed to be making an action RPG. Like a lot of action RPGs that have both action and RPG elements (like Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning, which famously had God of War inspired combat but also a lot of RPG elements.) But the actual problem I have with the game, if you read what I wrote, is not that the marketing was misleading (which happens a lot, and it was in this case) but that they put a bunch of bad mechanics in the game to support the marketing so the game has a lot of bad mechanics.

If they had just said "yeah this is an action RPG" but had made a pure action game I would be more forgiving. But instead they made an action game but put in a bunch of bad mechanics to support it being an RPG (which they clearly felt they needed for a mainline Final Fantasy game) so you end up with a game that has a bunch of bad stuff in it like consistently disappointing loot and combat rewards, terrible crafting, and an actual progression system (the AP system) that has way too much redundant or uninteresting stuff in it.

They also made a game that's way too long to support the lack of variety in a combat system that doesn't actually evolve much beyond the first few hours.

The problem here is that Square clearly had an idea of what mainline Final Fantasy has to be (RPG elements, a 40+ hour campaign) and the stuff they put in to try and meet that expectation is all terrible,

It's not so much the "lie" as the half-baked attempt to justify it that drags the game down from "really good" to "sometimes good but very inconsistent."

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chaser324

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#14 chaser324  Moderator

For the folks that are on team "FFXVI isn't a real Final Fantasy", I'm curious what your feelings are on Lightning Returns, FFXV, FF7R, and Strangers of Paradise. Do those meet your criteria?

I'm also curious if the perception of the very MMO-like sidequests in FFXVI might be colored by how much time people have spent with FFXIV.

To me, FFXVI feels like a pretty natural progression of the franchise and the direction it's been slowly headed in with everything since FFX, but I also don't necessarily disagree with the opinion that it's relatively RPG-lite.

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ALLTheDinos

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Good writeup, thank you. I personally feel like whether something counts as mainline FF is irrelevant, especially with them considering abolishing the numbers from future titles. However, I understand the sentiment for this particular game based on the points you made. I’m a “9 is middling, 8 is great” freak so feel free to disregard what I say on the series writ large.

A friend of mine noted that there’s a good chance they had resistance mechanics at some point in development, based on instructions during an Eikon battle that don’t end up making a material difference. It’s possible Square cut a lot of RPG depth in order to release this game at a time that was financially advantageous to them. It doesn’t seem like a lot of their other projects (aside from 14) are doing particularly well, so it’s easy to see a world where money affected the game.

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bigsocrates

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@chaser324: I don't think anybody here is on team "it doesn't feel like real Final Fantasy." My argument was more that it feels like they were trying to turn an action game into an action RPG and the RPG parts are all bad. That's what I meant by it doesn't feel like "mainline" Final Fantasy. It doesn't feel like the developers had any interest in the RPG stuff they clearly felt compelled to include because it was a numbered sequel.

I don't personally have any issue with Final Fantasy games that do different stuff with the franchise. FF Tactics is one of my favorites in the series, and I loved FF VII Remake (and thought the RPG stuff was much better handled there.) I also think FF XIII is much more of a "real" RPG and I hate the combat system in that so much I can't even slog through it, while FF XVI's combat is not bad but is too simple for a game this long.

I also think that FF XVI's sidequests don't necessarily read as that MMO like just because almost every genre of game with sidequests uses those as the default these days. So many games do the "quest marker over the head then follow the marker on the map" thing. It's just too bad that unlike even MMOs these days FF XVI doesn't give you anything new to do in any of these quests.

@allthedinos: I don't think that the numbers are a big deal and I don't actually care if they get rid of them. As I've said Tactics is possibly my favorite in the whole series. My major issue with this game is that the RPG mechanics are forced and bad.

I think the idea that they had to strip some stuff out makes sense, not just with the way elemental magic works (or kind of doesn't) in the game but also with the separate stagger and attack numbers and a few other elements. On the other hand it doesn't feel like a rushed game in other ways. There's a massive amount of content and it is relatively technically polished and doesn't have a lot of hanging plot threads or other signs of a game that got carved up to meet a release date.

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First, I want to say my original comment was a word of caution rather than an accusatory post. I am simply warning you and others that the crowd that gravitates towards calling Final Fantasy XVI "not a true Final Fantasy" have been around for decades and you don't want to associate with them.

@chaser324: I don't think anybody here is on team "it doesn't feel like real Final Fantasy." My argument was more that it feels like they were trying to turn an action game into an action RPG and the RPG parts are all bad. That's what I meant by it doesn't feel like "mainline" Final Fantasy. It doesn't feel like the developers had any interest in the RPG stuff they clearly felt compelled to include because it was a numbered sequel.

Yes, but the point still remains that there are previous examples of this happening within the Final Fantasy franchise, and your concern is not unique to Final Fantasy XVI. A lot of what you are describing were common complaints of the XIII series, XV, Type-0, etc.

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One time I looted 5Gil from a chest. 5Gil. I laughed out loud!

I just made it to the second time skip and... idk I lost all interest in playing tbh. I kind of thought maybe I was getting close to the end of the game but it sounds like thats basically still the beginning?

I really agree with your post. Its such a mix of hot and cold and the only thing really compelling about the game is the story and its really touch and go. Like is the combat even really that good? It was fun enough to service what was going on but I'd never actually play it just for the gameplay. Having no customization at all really, really sucks. There is no strategy and I dont need to worry about the economy or supplying myself for battles I just use what is available as its available and it always works out.

An odd one, indeed! It does make me want to go back and play Dragon Age Inquisition, so Ill probably just go do that.

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mach_go_go_go

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I have disregarded almost every Final Fantasy game since 8 onwards, then begrudgingly played through it between 5 to 10 years later, and am nearly always forced to admit to myself that I enjoyed the hell out of it. Yes, this includes the XIII trilogy.

Also, for what it's worth, to me the RPG argument lost all meaning once Mass Effect released and was commonly referred to as an RPG without pause or backlash. If Mass Effect is an RPG, then XVI is a Final Fantasy game.

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bigsocrates

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@zombiepie: You still haven't explained what's so evil about these people. I personally love FF VII Remake and its combat but if someone wants to say "that's not my Final Fantasy" about it that doesn't bother me. If they want to whine about it a lot that makes them annoying but wouldn't qualify as "festering." If they want to complain that modern Final Fantasy has Black people in it (and FF XVI is notably non-diverse, which is a whole other issue) that gets much closer to festering, but saying "this doesn't feel like Final Fantasy" doesn't adopt that racist viewpoint any more than saying "I don't like Caitlyn Jenner" is inherently anti-trans.

But I'm not aware of any such conversations about Final Fantasy other than annoying fanboyism, which exits all over in videogames and isn't, to me, a big enough deal to call people the scum of the earth. You can find annoying people with every video game position.

And I don't hold the extreme version of the "this isn't Final Fantasy" perspective anyway. I clearly said I enjoyed the game AND that I would probably check out direct sequels or DLC, which means that my criticism is on the mild side.

I don't really care what has happened previously with critiques of the Final Fantasy franchise because I made my positions clear here. I maybe should have picked a different title for my post, but a bunch of other people have the same criticism. The issue with this game isn't that it has a number on it and it's not a true RPG, or even as @mach_go_go_go says that it calls itself an RPG when it's really not, the issue is that Square put in a bunch of RPG mechanics and did (in some cases) literally nothing with them, leading to consistent disappointment when trying to engage with those mechanics (like @junkerman's example of going out of your way to search for a chest only to get trolled with what's in it, which would be funny once but is true of like 95% of the chests i the game). A related issue is that even if you only engage with the action mechanics, which are competent, they're not enough to carry the game's length, which itself seems dictated at least in part by Square's vision of what a "mainline" Final Fantasy game should be.

Nobody who has played the game has defended these aspects in this thread, they've just said "A Final Fantasy game can be whatever it wants to!" And if this game were an excellent, well-paced, action game with the same name I might still feel a little weird about it having a mainline number instead of being a spinoff (the same way I always have about the MMOs) but it would be much less of a big deal.

The bigger deal here is that Square seems to have felt that it had to do something to justify the number and that led to it creating a somewhat bloated game with a bunch of dead end mechanics that make the player think there's more depth there but lead to disappointment and frustration whenever you try to engage with them.

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So far, the biggest compliment I can give Final Fantasy XVI is that it finally gave me the motivation I needed to load up my Yakuza 7 save from April and grind through the Sotenbori Arena a couple times so I could be at the right level for the Chapter 12 boss fight, and then plow through the rest of the game to finally be up to speed with that franchise after six long years (other than Lost Judgement and Ishin) which is both exciting and leaving me feeling a bit empty.

But after about 15 hours with FFXVI, going back to Yakuza 7 was a real moment of "ah, this is what I was looking for" in the sense that one moment I was auto-battling mobs on the street, the next shouting down shareholders, the next grinding a battle arena, the next visiting a shopkeeper to upgrade my gear, the next going on a date, the next doing some kart racing...

So for me, I think when I'm thinking "RPG", it's the sheer variety of things you can do and how well the game integrates that into the world, with a dash of believing your character might actually do this. There's a sense of sprawl, even in the SNES days but especially in the Playstation multi-disc era, that really defines what an RPG experience is for me. That's probably partially because I fell off of the genre pretty heavily in the years following FFXII, but Yakuza 7 is so definitionally "RPG" to me where FFXVI is, at best, an action game with RPG elements...and other action games, like God of War or Assassin's Creed Origins or freaking Street Fighter 6 have stronger RPG elements than this does.

Whether that makes it "A Final Fantasy" or not doesn't really matter to me since that name has been synonymous with "I have no idea what I'm looking at" for me for over a decade at this point, but I wholeheartedly agree that the RPG aspects of this game feel desperate at best.